I was speaking to a breeder in the States last week, trying to find out about importing some semen for my merle bitch, When i asked If she has a merle or all white stud, she replied saying I couldnt do either breeding's bacause "the genes are not compatable" she also said that when 2 Merle dogs are bred they create a merle called "Leathal Merle".. What does she mean? I thought there were practically no health issues with the Alapaha. is this one i should know about?
Since owning an unilaterally deaf excessive white bitch (CRK's MISS PIGGY) bred down from a pied x merle. I have done a lot of research on merle, pied and white genes. The main reason I used a unilateral deaf dog with excellent conform, temperament and working drives in my program, is the fact that that excessive white and deafness is NOT hereditary but caused by a Merle (Mm) x Pied (Sp), Merle (Mm) x Merle (Mm) or Merle (Mm) x Excessive White (Sw) . But remember unlike double Merle, excessive whites are not only restricted to Merle(Mm) x Merle(Mm) but also Merle(Mm) to White(Sw) or Merle(Mm) to Pied (Sp).. But if you breed to 100% Black or 80% Black to 20% white like (SPOOK) to a hard of hearing, excessive white dog like (MISS PIGGY) . Then you will get 100% merle pups that WILL all have good hearing.
Deafness is not just restricted to breeds that have Merle's but is seen in breeds that produce majority white phenotype with little or nopigment like the Dal or EBT. What I have gathered, from reliable sources is that if care is taken to select a suitable mate of 90% + BLACK (mm), the chances of producing a MM(excessive white, double/lethal Merle) is NON EXISTENT. as all the pups will carry the Mm gene , no solids and NO excessivewhites. Resulting in a whole Litter of unaffected pups, this has apparently been repeatedly proven, in Aussies and Shelties and now the Alapaha (MISS PIGGYxSPOOK). at the bottom of the post are pictures of the litter MISS PIGGY produced with SPOOK
To put it in context, here is a chart that explains how pups share genes from each parent (as you can see there are no MM) S P O O K m mP M Mm MmIG M Mm MmThis was enough evidence for me that deafness is not a hereditary but is congentical in most white or double merle dogs and is only seen in the Alapaha breed when Mm x Mm or Majority white breedings occur and produce dogs with little or no pigment. this is why i bred CRK's MISS PIGGY to WKA's SPOOKKEY
M = Merle Gene
m = Solid Gene
Every dog has 2 of these colour genes. One inherited from each parent.
Mixed together they appear as the following –
mm = Solid coloured (ie: black, red with or without varying amounts of, brindle, or white trim. Absence of the merle gene)
Mm= Merle or sable coloured (ie: red, blue, black, grey with or without varying amounts of brindle, or white trim.)
MM = Excessive white/double merle (absence of the solid gene)
Possible breeding colour outcomes when the following crosses are made –
Solid x Solid: mm x mm = mm
No merle or white pups can be produced by breeding 2 solid colored dogs.
Solid x Merle : mm x Mm = mm or Mm
No excessive white pups can be produced when one of the parents is a solid color.
Solid x White: mm x MM = Mm
All of the pups produced will be merles no solids and no whites.
White x White: MM x MM = MM
All of the pups will be excessive whites.
White x Merle:MM x Mm = MM or Mm
No solid coloured pups can be produced if 1 of the parents is an excessive white.
Merle x Merle: Mm x Mm = MM or Mm or mm
2 merles can produce all the color outcomes.
For some reason this site cut off the majority of your post, but I was able to read it in my e-mail.
Anyhow, I admit my knowledge of this breed is in its infancy, but I have been doing a bit of research, and I suppose I know a little more about the ARF's standard than the ABBA, but don't know too much about either.
I was under the impression tho, that Alapaha's did have Old Southern White in their bloodlines, and that this was part of what created the original breed of Alapaha. I'm not professing to know what I do not know, so correct me if I'm wrong. But, I thought that is was considered acceptable to breed (periodically, not frequently) to an old southern white because of the very small gene pool used in breeding Alapahas. A lot of owners seem to trace their dogs back to Lana's and that this was a way to avoid inbreeding, and improving overall health of the breed, b y having some genetic diversity, but that it was okay, bec like I mentioned before, the old southern white was part of the Alapaha's orgin. Is this incorrect?
Of course I would much prefer to have a pup from an Alapaha bred to an Alapaha and not an Alapaha bred to an Old Southern White (that only makes sense) but what else could this high merle bitch be bred to?
I do not want a dog with black markings or a black coat. So if it's bred with a black dog, that is not really desirable to me. Is there another way?
I agree....if your breeder is breeding an ABBA Alapaha to anything other than an ABBA Alapaha, run away, don't walk, RUN!
“Communication, Unification and Breed Elevation is the goal, together there’s no boundary to what we can accomplish.” —Nerak Bulldogs 6/24/2008
“Expecting and demanding others adhere to some degree of ethics and morals results in hostile attacks, recompense for successful defense against exploitation is worth the heat.” —Nerak Bulldogs 3/7/2010
yes mate thats the ARF.the same place that used to let you merit register dogs.Just stay away.get a ABBA dog.If your in the uk then most are ABBA so you would have problems breeding your dog if it wernt ABBA reged aswell.then the rest are either not papered atall or are the create a breed registrys that you can register any dog to.Stick with ABBA and you will be happy.hope this helps.like nerak said.RUN dont walk lol.and its ok mate your a newbie.ask as many questions as you like so you dont make a wrong choice.it may be worth emailing a few ABBA board members and ask them aswell.they will tell you in detail
Hello and welcome to Dawgforums. You'll find a wealth of knowledgable breeders and enthusiates of the ABB here. Old Southern Whites were used in the pre-registration ABB. Since the ABBA began in 1979 there has been a closed stud file, meaning any Alapaha produced after 1979 must have its ancestory dating back to the stud files. This means NO CROSS BREEDING for whatever reason is exceptable!I'm glad to see there are people doing their research on this amazing breed. Now i'm glad the breeder of your puppy, has agreed that merle to merle is not a good idea, unless the lines you're breeding are sound and well known by the breeder. I dont see to much of a problem breeding a white to merle as long as the white dog has good pigmentation, this can be checked by looking at the eyes, nose and paw pads, checking for consistent colour, if the pigment is non-existent (pink around the eyes, nose and pads) then dont breed to a merle... So which breeder, may i ask, did you place a deposit with? are their dogs ABBA registered? I'm not quite sure what you meant by "high Merle".. The merle gene is a patterning gene, that dilutes a solid base colour, like Red, Black, Liver etc... So for example: a black based dog that has the merle gene will appear to have blue or Gray markings in their coat colour, this is infact a dilution of the black base. Merle doesnt place colours in "uniform" but "mottles" the colour throughout the coat. Any particular dog that carries the merle gene doesn't have "high" or "low" merle, what i'm saying is they either have or dont. Yes there is a big difference between an all white ABB as opposed to an excessive white or homozygous merle(carrying 2 identical alles of the same genes such as MM) Individuals who are homozygous for the merle pattern gene (MM) often have visual or auditory deficits; however, homozygosity of the dilution gene has NOT been associated with any inherited defects or disorders . A well bred all white ABB will have a black nose and good pigment around the eyes. excessive whites usually come from but are not limitted to merle x merle or Merle x white or merle x pied or pied to pied, these dogs have little or no pigment. It all boils down to knowing your breeds genetics and these must be studied exstensivly to understand why these phenotypical traits are produces.When breeding merles, you must be very careful as to which mate is chosen.
hi John mate,
i got Fate from you out of spook and lady pearl.. do you have anything unrelated studwise good for her? i've been lookin for a long time since i've had her and still havent found anything i'm really happy with due to difference in shape and finding the right colours too... what was your litter jolin and brown bear like? thats what i wanted to go with for my merle putting her with a solid choc or red?! whats your opionin on this and what will the result be? cheers mate Barry