I was speaking to a breeder in the States last week, trying to find out about importing some semen for my merle bitch, When i asked If she has a merle or all white stud, she replied saying I couldnt do either breeding's bacause "the genes are not compatable" she also said that when 2 Merle dogs are bred they create a merle called "Leathal Merle".. What does she mean? I thought there were practically no health issues with the Alapaha. is this one i should know about?
Since owning an unilaterally deaf excessive white bitch (CRK's MISS PIGGY) bred down from a pied x merle. I have done a lot of research on merle, pied and white genes. The main reason I used a unilateral deaf dog with excellent conform, temperament and working drives in my program, is the fact that that excessive white and deafness is NOT hereditary but caused by a Merle (Mm) x Pied (Sp), Merle (Mm) x Merle (Mm) or Merle (Mm) x Excessive White (Sw) . But remember unlike double Merle, excessive whites are not only restricted to Merle(Mm) x Merle(Mm) but also Merle(Mm) to White(Sw) or Merle(Mm) to Pied (Sp).. But if you breed to 100% Black or 80% Black to 20% white like (SPOOK) to a hard of hearing, excessive white dog like (MISS PIGGY) . Then you will get 100% merle pups that WILL all have good hearing.
Deafness is not just restricted to breeds that have Merle's but is seen in breeds that produce majority white phenotype with little or nopigment like the Dal or EBT. What I have gathered, from reliable sources is that if care is taken to select a suitable mate of 90% + BLACK (mm), the chances of producing a MM(excessive white, double/lethal Merle) is NON EXISTENT. as all the pups will carry the Mm gene , no solids and NO excessivewhites. Resulting in a whole Litter of unaffected pups, this has apparently been repeatedly proven, in Aussies and Shelties and now the Alapaha (MISS PIGGYxSPOOK). at the bottom of the post are pictures of the litter MISS PIGGY produced with SPOOK
To put it in context, here is a chart that explains how pups share genes from each parent (as you can see there are no MM) S P O O K m mP M Mm MmIG M Mm MmThis was enough evidence for me that deafness is not a hereditary but is congentical in most white or double merle dogs and is only seen in the Alapaha breed when Mm x Mm or Majority white breedings occur and produce dogs with little or no pigment. this is why i bred CRK's MISS PIGGY to WKA's SPOOKKEY
M = Merle Gene
m = Solid Gene
Every dog has 2 of these colour genes. One inherited from each parent.
Mixed together they appear as the following –
mm = Solid coloured (ie: black, red with or without varying amounts of, brindle, or white trim. Absence of the merle gene)
Mm= Merle or sable coloured (ie: red, blue, black, grey with or without varying amounts of brindle, or white trim.)
MM = Excessive white/double merle (absence of the solid gene)
Possible breeding colour outcomes when the following crosses are made –
Solid x Solid: mm x mm = mm
No merle or white pups can be produced by breeding 2 solid colored dogs.
Solid x Merle : mm x Mm = mm or Mm
No excessive white pups can be produced when one of the parents is a solid color.
Solid x White: mm x MM = Mm
All of the pups produced will be merles no solids and no whites.
White x White: MM x MM = MM
All of the pups will be excessive whites.
White x Merle:MM x Mm = MM or Mm
No solid coloured pups can be produced if 1 of the parents is an excessive white.
Merle x Merle: Mm x Mm = MM or Mm or mm
2 merles can produce all the color outcomes.
Thanks for the question and what a great one to! Well the breeder you spoke to was right, the genes are not compatible. Only a breeder with excellent knowledge of his/her lines should ever undertake a Merle to Merle breeding.
Other breeding's to be extra cautious of are Merle to White and Merle to Pied. A Merle x Merle breeding would result in 25% chance pups will be SOLID (mm) in colour 75% chance pups will be MERLE (Mm) with a 25% chance of a double Merle (MM) gene combination. some refer to last 25% as Double Merle, Lethal Merle/white or Excessive Whites. more often than not these pups are usually visually impaired, deaf or unilaterally deaf.. The reason these pups lack hearing is because of the low level of pigmentation in the inner sensory hairs within the ear that pick up sound. A bilaterally hearing dog (both ears good) has good pigment in these hairs making them stiff, thus sound is picked up perfectly, Unilaterally hearing dogs have little or no pigment in these hairs making them lay flat therefore little or no sound is picked up depending on the sincerity of the pigmentation... more often than not double Merle or excessive whites have pink noses, blue eyes and skin that is majority pink, this is a good indicator that if you own want to breed a dog like that, chose a mate with good pigment.
John/WKA
Oh OK, she dint explain it like that! That's kind of scary. I wouldn't want to bring pups into the world only to kill them because the way they were bred. So its best to steer clear of breeding anything but a solid to a Merle? What are the abbreviations next to the colours like (SOLID mm) ?What would happen if you bred a double merle to a solid? I take it you would get a whole litter of deaf pups? sorry for the questions but i find genetics very interesting..
Only a breeder with excellent knowledge of his/her lines should ever undertake a Merle to Merle breeding. wat a true statement!!! again RESEARCH is inperitive
Great Advice David. When I first got into the breed I wanted to breed a blue merle male to a chocolate merle female. I'm glad I didn't.....the woman you spoke to BigBullys did the right thing buy warning you I'm glad you came here for more information. The "mm/MM" you asked about is a genetic term for merle and double merle. This is a very important topic for new breeders thanks for bringing it up.
“Communication, Unification and Breed Elevation is the goal, together there’s no boundary to what we can accomplish.” —Nerak Bulldogs 6/24/2008
“Expecting and demanding others adhere to some degree of ethics and morals results in hostile attacks, recompense for successful defense against exploitation is worth the heat.” —Nerak Bulldogs 3/7/2010
Thanks for all that great info, it is priceless!! If you dont mind i'd like to print this off, for my folder?
I noticed the picture of spook and miss piggy is from your breeding page on your website, how can i go about placing a deposit on a pup, they all look awesome and what great colour coverage they all have.
Thanks again John for taking your time to pass on this info, very much appreciated..
Thanks NERAK, i'm still finding it real hard to understand genetics, so i'll think i'll steer clear of breeding merle to merle etc.. I must say i have a huge amount of respect for the work you put into the Alapaha and have only ever heard great things about your kennels. your dogs are amazing, and a real credit to you, Mitzi is my fav, her dam is one of my favorite Alapahas to date.
That is really interesting stuff i got told all about the merle/merle breeding when I was doing my research, wasn't sure about the whole hereditary/genetic thing but its good that someone (John) has done his homework and shows he cares about the welfare of the breed. The feb breeding looks interesting
I'm with you on that, the last litter they produced was amazing, it's ashame i couldnt make it down to WKA's yard to see the pups in person, but i'm defo reserving one this time lol, even if it does break the bank
BigBullies: Thanks NERAK, i'm still finding it real hard to understand genetics, so i'll think i'll steer clear of breeding merle to merle etc.. I must say i have a huge amount of respect for the work you put into the Alapaha and have only ever heard great things about your kennels. your dogs are amazing, and a real credit to you, Mitzi is my fav, her dam is one of my favorite Alapahas to date.
THANK YOU! I hear so much negativity doing what I do to protect our bloodlines its nice to hear I've earned the respect of others.
(Mitzi is my favorite too....shhh don't tell the others)
They did a really great job answering your specific question about merle to merle breedings, and I am so glad you took the time to ask. But if you are interested in more color genetics there is a web group called bulldogs of color and a web page. Joyce adds alot of useful information about color genetics.
Many of the studies will be based on either Aussie or Danes, but the science holds true even when switching breeds. Things like dilute genes which cause a true blue. What we commonly refer to as a blue merle is usually infact a black base dog with merle. But there are a few true 'blue' merles out there.
The dog would need to express the dilute gene as well as have the merle gene. This would result in a dog with a 'blue' nose- and have the blue colored merling usually lighter colors then what we would normally see on a black base 'blue' merle and the dog would express NO black in the merling only varing shades of blue- grey- silver. It is really amazing what you can learn from a few genetics studies.
Personally I like science and math so I find it really interesting to look into. And one of the Joys of owning my ABBA dogs. They come in such a variety of colors you can have a rainbow without sacrificing temperment or conformation if you research, research, research. And if you are in doubt, ask around most of the breeders are so great about sharing what they know.
Debbie
Broken Halo Bulldogs
Go A.B.B.A
"Where Heritage Matter"
I got to be fair i seen this breeding and the pups where to die for amazing colour and great bone structure and they where healthy in all ways , londons pride was a cracker keep up the good work j/d
Ok, I have a question too. I did get a lot info out of your response to that woman, but since I'ma little slow, I just hope to get a little further clarification, if possible.
Initially I wanted an American Bulldog, and while doing research, discovered the Alapaha. I have since put a deposit on a pup from a bitch that will be bred later in the year. I know a little about the breed bu virtually nothing about BREEDINGS.
The mom of my dog is like white with red merle/ brindle and blue eys, a truly striking dog. I initially asked about haveing her bred to a blue merle stud, I think, and the Owner did inform me that since the mother of my pup is "high merle", that that was not a good idea. She has not selected a stud yet to breed to the bitch, but said it will be most likely an all white one.
I'm trying to determine from your post whether or not this is gonna create some of those congenital defect you mentioned, but I'm not quite sure.
Is there a difference between an all white alapaha and an excessive white? OR are those different things? What is the dog is all white with lile a small merle path on the eye or something? What is that dog conisdered?
My other question is, I know that it is acceptable to breed alapahas to a couple other kinds of bulldogs to introduce new genes, like the old southern whites etc....If my breeder breeds to a white dog like that, will there be an issue?
Hopefully that didn't come out to jumbled. Any info would be appreciated, thanks. You might have to break it down a lilttle, because i'm slow.
You cant breed a ABBA reg Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog TO ANY TYPE OF DOG EXCEPT another ABBA reg Alapaha blue blood bulldog.